dwarf burms

[bogwan]

Just so as not to have to type it all over, has anyone heard about any of this? http://www.bobclark.com/bcforums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19692&FORUM_ID=1&CAT_ID=1&Topic_Title=Dwarf+Burms&Forum_Title=Bob+Clark+Main

[reptiledude2]

yes i have it was on kingsnake i promise email him and ask him if he ahs any they are going for $20,000 a pair

[RachelS.]

I don't think I believe in them....

[reptiledude2]

they are on ks again they just posted them

[reptiledude2]

I don't think I believe in them....

why not?

[dan.]

Rachel, i have now seen some and up until that point i was unsure myself - that said now i am a believer.

[bogwan]

here is the link for the people who doubt:http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=7&de=182009

[RachelS.]

I've seen the pictures, but I still can't figure them out...

[Russ]

For everyone else who is doubtful about the dwarf burms, I emailed the people questioning them about the validity of their animals. The reply was pretty funny because the ppl were pissed, so I saved it. I'll post it when I go back to my mom's house (it's on the computer there, not here).

[Russ]

Here's that email. Sorry it took so long. This was a while ago, so I might not still have the same opinions I did back then...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subj: Re: Question on dwarf burms
Date: 9/18/03 2:12:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: morphspecialties@yahoo.com
To: RlViper87@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)

First off, let me say if you say they cant be burms because they are dwarves, then how could the be sri lank or indians if they are dwarves? Your not making sense.. Anyway you are free to believe whatever you want to. Bob Clark knows they are real dwarves and real burmese, he is trying his hardest to get them.. Tell me, if it were bob that came out with them first would you believe it??

They are burms, they are dwarf. If you feel that dwarf retics arent real retics either than thats fine, maybe they are a new subspecies, who knows. I can tell you that if you look at things like thatr then how can you be sure every snake you have is the actual one its supposed to be? The person the found the first one and described it didnt do dna on it, how do you know thats the exact same species as teh first one? Maybe it just looks the same?

ANyway, you see my points, thanks for your concern. And thanks for your email. We have several pairs of babies sold for 25,000/pr..
Thanks

Savannah

RlViper87@aol.com wrote:
I have a question about your "dwarf burmese pythons." I'm not saying you're lying by calling them burms, I'm just curious that they may be Indian or Sri Lankan pythons that are abnormally small or maybe even their own new subspecies. Even though everyone breeds retics to dwarf retics, I consider the dwarfs another subspecies because of the geographic isolation of the smaller ones on Jampea, and I think this may be the case with these burms too. The ad on kingsnake.com said their locality was unknown, so I'm not sure about breeding them to burms and possibly crossing subspecies to get impure bloodlines. I'm just against breeding 2 different kinds snakes, even if only just in different subspecies of 1 species. I like to keep them all the way they are naturally produced and I don't like seeing hybrids and things like Boa constrictor constrictor x B.c. imperator and other snakes like that. You guys can do what you want with them, though. I think it is truly awesome that there is finally a Python molurus that is small enough to not have to dedicate a small room or very large cage to it when it gets to be a few years old. Also, I'm curious on what price you want for them. Thank you.

Russ Lawson


Thanks,
Savannah
New Imported Morphs
morphspecialties.com(coming soon)

[Ian]

I've said it many times before, and I continue to say it.
They dont look like burms. They may be small, but I doubt they are burms. Maybe a subspecies of Indian or Ceylonese, but their patterns do not look like burms to me.

PLus, that Savannah girl...something isnt right with her "story"
I want to see scale counts before I believe they are burms.

IAN

[Russ]

Ian, I definately agree with you. You can't just call it a burm because it looks kind of like one. A scale count would be the best thing to do to clear this confusion up.

[RachelS.]

I'm with Ian... they may look a lot like burms, but I don't think they are. And unless there's proof that they are burms then I'm going to keep believing this way. I agree that they're probably just another subspecies of pimburas or indians like the dwarf retics. If you look closely the pattern of the babies it's really maze-patterned, it's not like a burm's pattern at all, but the adults sure have the burm pattern. Kind of weird if you ask me... shouldn't the babies look like the adults at least? just my thoughts...

[Weenkie]

Originally posted by Ian
I've said it many times before, and I continue to say it.
They dont look like burms. They may be small, but I doubt they are burms. Maybe a subspecies of Indian or Ceylonese, but their patterns do not look like burms to me.

PLus, that Savannah girl...something isnt right with her "story"
I want to see scale counts before I believe they are burms.

IAN


Ian I am going to have to agree with you on this. Back when the supposed Dwarfs first came out this Savannah girl was shooting her mouth off at epic proportions and in my estimation of the issue she was calling Bob a liar and trying to build hype around her animals. Lets face it just like I said then and I will say now if Bob wanted these Burms Bob would have had them. With the lies surrounding this animal and the possibility of who they might belong to, I will stick with Dwarf Retics, thanks:)

[Ian]

Ian I am going to have to agree with you on this. Back when the supposed Dwarfs first came out this Savannah girl was shooting her mouth off at epic proportions and in my estimation of the issue she was calling Bob a liar and trying to build hype around her animals. Lets face it just like I said then and I will say now if Bob wanted these Burms Bob would have had them. With the lies surrounding this animal and the possibility of who they might belong to, I will stick with Dwarf Retics, thanks

Exactly, its too sketchy to even loose 100 bucks in. Most likely they are some subspecies, and they probably do not belong to Savanah. I agree, if Bob wanted them, he would have them. No importer would sell to a nobody over one of the most respected. I believe on the BOI Bob even said he wasnt that interested in them. I guarantee down the line, the truth will come out.

But for now, who wants to buy my dwarf ball pythons? They only get 3 feet! ;)

IAN

[Weenkie]

Originally posted by Ian


But for now, who wants to buy my dwarf ball pythons? They only get 3 feet! ;)

IAN



LMAO! Give me a 1.3! Oh only pairs? [r0ll] Oh sold out? [r0ll] How much? 20k 15k or 10k this week on SUPER SALE! Dwarf Burms My A$$[})] ;) :D :lol:

[Hawkeman]

If you'd like to purchase a dwarf burm and support Jeffrey Charles Miller, feel free to get screwed by a thief. Savannah is just an 18 year old lackey doing the dirty work for a felon.

My $.02

Tom

[Weenkie]

Originally posted by Hawkeman
If you'd like to purchase a dwarf burm and support Jeffrey Charles Miller, feel free to get screwed by a thief. Savannah is just an 18 year old lackey doing the dirty work for a felon.

My $.02

Tom

:lol: :lol: :lol: You took the word right out of my mouth! Great to see you here Hawkman! Seen you around on the BCF and I enjoy your posts;) Welcome!:)

[Ian]

Wow Hawkeman, tell us how you really feel ;)
Thats basically what I wanted to say, but you got it across MUCH better!

Welcome to the site!

IAN

[dan.]

OK, firstly yes she is more than likely a lackey for the thief named but does that mean she doesn't know what she is talking about? Most conmen and thieves are experts in the fields they "work" in.
Perhaps (and thats a big one) she is telling the truth and these are genuine animals. She isn't the only one that imported them and she certainly isn't the only one that is selling them.

Secondly, i know i have said it before but the same stuff was said about dwarf retics when they first appeared on the seen and yet they are a "trusted" commodity now. Perhaps we should give it time and see what happens instead of shooting off about something we can't possibly know the full story on yet.

[Hawkeman]

OK, firstly yes she is more than likely a lackey for the thief named but does that mean she doesn't know what she is talking about? Most conmen and thieves are experts in the fields they "work" in.

So she "knows" what she's doing? That's how she negotiated the delicate and shakey Asian contacts? Reptile brokers overseas don't just talk with any chubby pre-teen. These contacts take YEARS to develop. You can't just get a Myanmar phone book and open the yellow pages to "Dwarf Burm Collectors", ya know?

I'm not flaming you, I'm just trying to say what I CAN'T say about the situation. There's a lot more to this, guys. LOTS MORE.

Tom

[Tom C]

Most conmen and thieves are experts in the fields they "work" in.

I highly doubt this is the case, she is most likely just an uneducated front for miller.

Bob has already stated and proven all this on the BOI (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28525)..

[dan.]

Just curious here but does anyone here personally know her?? By this i don't just mean would you know here face in the street, i mean actually know her and have spent time with her.

[Tom C]

Just curious here but does anyone here personally know her?? By this i don't just mean would you know here face in the street, i mean actually know her and have spent time with her.

No, I havent spent time w/ her.I would never, knowingly associate my self w/ a known thief or one of their apprentices.

There is no doubt that she is young and naive, but she has proven her self a liar and friend/business partner of Miller.

W/ this known, why would anyone trust her ???

[dan.]

Ok, cheers. So you don't know her yet you are able to determine what she is like.... impressive. A person with such a skill could go far in life.

Don't get me wrong here by the way. I in no way support her or him, i just feel that forums such as these lose perspective when it becomes a one sided arguement/conversation.

[Tom C]

Ok, cheers. So you don't know her yet you are able to determine what she is like.... impressive. A person with such a skill could go far in life.

Actually, I dont usually try to base my opinions about a person w/ out actually knowing them.However, I wont beat a dead horse and argue w/ you about known facts that have been presented by reliable and respected breeders.


So you don't know her yet you are able to determine what she is like

How well do you know her???

[dan.]

I don't know her at all, but i'm not the one slagging her off when she isn't here to defend herself. As i said i like to try and make sure things don't loose perspective, makes for more interesting conversations that way.

I'm not saying this is by ANY means true in any way but...... These respectable breeders you talk of would in theory loose business if these dwarf burms were to take off, perhaps in theory it it wouldhelp if they stopped the craze for now until they themselves are ready? The best way to do this would be to discredit the person selling them would it not?
As i said this is just another perspective on things, i'm not trying to say it is true

[Weenkie]

Originally posted by dan.


These respectable breeders you talk of would in theory loose business if these dwarf burms were to take off, perhaps in theory it it wouldhelp if they stopped the craze for now until they themselves are ready?


LMAO! do you think Bob Could not have had this project first if he wanted it? Hmmmmm maybe Bobs Bank account wont handle a 20k withdraw? Not Likely![r0ll] People Like Bob do NOT have to stoop so low as to try and ruin a project just because they dont have it! Sorry I dont Buy that. The Fact that Mike or Bob did not buy into this Project is Proof enough for me. Trust me they could have and first by the way! This is a fact!

[Weenkie]

Originally posted by dan.
I don't know her at all, but i'm not the one slagging her off when she isn't here to defend herself.

Tell Her to come here and I would be more then happy to "slag her off" personally ;) [})] :D :lol: Sorry other people bought into a project that is being tainted by this scum..... I do feel bad for those folks :(

[Tom C]

I fully agree weenkie...

I find it amazing that people will stand behind these people after the courts have found Miller guilty of owing Bob $2 million+, and Miller has been caught shipping calico retics under her business name..hahaha

Please Dan..If your going to pitch a bitch..@ least have a leg to stand on.

Tom C

[dan.]

Maybe i have missed something here people but if you read what i said and even quote the entire passage instead of putting the bits that you can twist you would get further!!

I have said that i do not support her, nor do i believe that the passage you edited for quoting was correct. I have said before that i like to try to make as many perspective's clear as possible. The problems with forums is that people become very defensive and all gang together making something a fore gone conclusion before thinking about things and getting the facts for themselves. You really can't make an informed decision on something purely going on heresay and rumours.

I will say it one last time to try to ensure that this becomes clear. I do NOT support her, no do i believe the passage i typed is true. PLEASE if you are going to use my passages as a quote then use it in it's entireity and not purely to twist for your own agenda. Infact how about reading a post properly before jumping to conclusions, or don't bother with it at all.

[Weenkie]

Your posts makes it sound as if these "breeders" in so many words are the BIG BAD WOLVES and are out to destroy Little Red Riding Hood? Lets look at some facts,

Fact 1 Savanah admitted she was friends with this Miller creep.

Fact 2 Shipping bills have been located with Miller sending Calico Retics for her.

Fact 3 It was just posted and discovered in Court, here is a quote from Bob on the BOI.


The court has awarded me a judgement in the amount of $2.44 million against Miller for his involvement in the theft of my albino ball python colony in 1994. As part of the collection process Miller was ordered before the court in Phoenix, AZ on Jan. 22 to discuss his financial situation and to determine which of his assets may be seized in order to satisfy the judgement. Miller was ordered to bring copies of certain documents incuding bank statements, pay stubs, tax returns, etc. Miller's bank statements show several wire transfers to the same company in Malaysia from which Morph Specialties imports animals! Under oath Miller admitted the money was sent for shipments of animals to Morph Specialties. The connection is confirmed.

End quote.


I think this crap has been drug out long enough and poor Bob has been put through enough to have to deal with this shit now after already losing literally millions to a theft comitted by a person who is obviously behind the scenes of this girls operation. Dan all I really want is a peaceful forum where we can all have fun and enjoy friendship and fellowship. There is enough drama on everyother site on the web and I think this kind of stuff is better left for the BOI or something like that but the people envolved I trust so I have said what I have to say.You have the facts and I am sure not near all of them, I am just a peon I dont get to hear the good gossip ;) :D ..lol Anyway no hard feelings. You have my take on the matter.

[Ian]

Fact 1 Savanah admitted she was friends with this Miller creep.

Fact 2 Shipping bills have been located with Miller sending Calico Retics for her.

Fact 3 It was just posted and discovered in Court, here is a quote from Bob on the BOI.

Those FACTS alone make her untrustworthy of doing business with.
And is it really slagging someone if its TRUE?
Its not like these are rumours painted on the Mens Room walls. These are verifiable facts.

And I still stand by my statement that they are NOT burms. Some sub-species of P. Molorrus probably, but not dwarf burms.
If Bob wanted them, he would have had them. Mike and Bob both posted on the BOI that they didnt think they were that interesting and passed up on the project.

IAN

[dan.]

Weenkie, did you read the post regarding the "big bad wolves" as you put it. I did try to make it clear that although it isn't a thought i or anyone else i know stands by, it is however another line of thinking. I'm sorry if that train of thinking offended you.
My personal impression of this and just about every other forum out there is that the peacful life is generally not wanted. People want the odd heated debate, but what they don't like is when people put up a fight for no apparent reason. People usually go with general thought and club together to have a go at the reputaion of someone whther they are around to defend themselves or not. I personally would have liked for her to come on and explain herself, or atleast try!!
If you truly wanted the quiet life you wouldn't have commented at all, never mind joined a public forum where heated debates are frequent (generally).

[Weenkie]

Originally posted by dan.
[B I'm sorry if that train of thinking offended you. [/B]


Well I hope I am not the only one who thought your alternate train of thinking was BS. Oh yes I am just going to sit here and believe Bob Clark the Python breeders reputation that has been built on 30 years of hard work and dedication to this business and hobby and a LEGEND in this hobby is out to get this poor 18 year old girl and destroy her rep because she might have something he doesnt? Is this what I am suppose to believe? *KNOCK KNOCK* UMMMMMMM........McFLY!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I dont have a problem with free thinking but with the facts stated free thinking goes out the window. Facts are facts, free thinking dont change what is true. Now if you really want to do some free thinking why dont you sit there and go back over the facts Dan.

As for the heated debates on this forum thats what we have forum leaders for. Sure we will have our share but I dont want to turn this wonderful place Mike made for us into WWE Raw over here with BS. Fact is this isnt even worth debating, your alternate turn of thinking is basiclly saying Bob Clark is out to hurt her and thats not alternate thinking but an out right lie she told because her association with Miller was discovered and Bob presented the facts. Your promotion of any other idea is basiclly calling Bob a liar. Not to cool, not to cool at all. I for one will have no part in it.[r0ll] [r0ll]

[dan.]

For god's sake woman, do you EVER read a reply thoroughly??? I know you have selective hearing as a female but selective reading aswell!! You my dear are absolutely amazing. No matter how much i try to get a point across you still can't quite grasp it in that tiny little mind of yours. I wont bother to ask you to quote me completely or not at all again as it has become quite clear that all you wish to do is try to make me look as if i am out to discredit Bob Clark. If i wanted to do that i would sit here and type up all the rumours you here about animals he has sent over to the uk, that is not however what i am trying to do.
Just because you have a view point does not mean that it is the only one, there is a word for people like you!
I hope you continue to enjoy life in your little narrow mind for as long as you can, for one day you will wake up rather sharply.

[Ian]

Wow. Way to be an asshat Dan


IAN

[Mike Wilbanks]

when it becomes a one sided arguement/conversation.

I know that I am getting here late, but I KNOW both sides of this one. I was standing there when Bob called her and I know exactly what was said. Here is how it happened....Bob was offered the Dwarf Burms from a customer in France that knew Bing Shee(the exporter). Bing Shee did not offer them directly to Bob because she owes him money. Bob sent me the pics and asked me what I thought. I told him that I was not interested in them. He told me what they cost, which was far less than what Savannah asked later and I told him I thought that it was too much. He passed on them, period. If he wanted the Dwarf Burms he would have just bought them then..........A few weeks later we start seeing ads about Dwarf Burms on Kingsnake from someone no one had ever heard of before. Bob's "friend" Julie called him and told him that she was friends with this girl named Savannah that had imported them. She asked if he wanted her to bring them to the KC show to show him. He looked at them at the show and passed on the for a second time. A few days later we were talking and started putting things together. This little girl, lives in the same town as Miller, she imported from the same person that Miller was in trouble with. Her boyfriend, Beau Lewis was Miller's Co-defendant. Things started adding up that she was just a front for Miller. Bob called Julie, she immediately denied that Savannah even knew who Miller was. Bob called Savannah and asked her if she knew Miller, she said "who?" and denied that she had ever heard of him. This was when we knew she was lying. It has been on the front page of Bob's site forever. Bob called her back and told her that if she didn't know Miller she did not have anything to worry about, but if he had imported those animals, he would get them as part of his judgement. This is when she accused him of harrassing her.

Now we know that Miller wired the money to Bing Shee. Miller shipped the animals and negotiated their sale. Savannah got mixed up with a very bad guy and hopefully she has realized that by now. There is no other side of this story. Miller tried to get back into the game and Savannah is his accomplice. Bob was not worried about competition or getting Dwarf Burms. He is worried about collecting from Miller. Savannah is an admitted liar and the business is better off without her in it.:kll:

[Weenkie]

Originally posted by dan.
For god's sake woman, do you EVER read a reply thoroughly??? I know you have selective hearing as a female but selective reading aswell!! You my dear are absolutely amazing. No matter how much i try to get a point across you still can't quite grasp it in that tiny little mind of yours. I wont bother to ask you to quote me completely or not at all again as it has become quite clear that all you wish to do is try to make me look as if i am out to discredit Bob Clark. If i wanted to do that i would sit here and type up all the rumours you here about animals he has sent over to the uk, that is not however what i am trying to do.
Just because you have a view point does not mean that it is the only one, there is a word for people like you!
I hope you continue to enjoy life in your little narrow mind for as long as you can, for one day you will wake up rather sharply.


Read the post above Dan. I am not going to sit here and tell you that you have a tiny little mind and turn into a troll like you obviously are. All I was trying to point out is that I had faith in Bob and more over I have faith in Mike Wilbanks who's moral character is of the finest standard and lets face it they work on the most exotic projects in the world together which makes them partners and Mike would never partner himself with anyone that would be dishonest in any way. Sorry I offended you Dan, I mean that and I am not out to flame you like you obviously are me. I am out I think Mike made things perfectly clear on this issue so ending it here would be best. The end

PS. Folks dont feed the trolls.........

[Hawkeman]

Thanks for the ultimate clarification, Mike. I have put several people on this in the area over in AZ just for my personal info. I can't say much more. Suffice to say that everything Mike has said is true, supported by my independent information.

I don't owe Mike or Bob anything. I've never even really met either one of them. The only tie I have to Bob is getting a great animal at asking price from him (and a normal burm at that). The initial drama surrounding the so-called "dwarf burms" piqued my interest and I enacted all of the resources I have in Arizona (LOTS considering the Army's Intel school is near Sierra Vista, AZ). I chose to gather my own intel and, for now, I can tell you that THE LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO IS DEAL WITH Savannah!!!!

Purchase one of these pairs from her and be prepared to show up in court. Period.

I've likely said too much and will not answer any emails on the subject for now. Too much ($2MIL+) is at stake for covers to be blown.

Savannah, if you're reading this... ...I would say "be careful who you sell these animals to", but I would be too late. Enjoy prison.

Tom

[Ian]

I've likely said too much and will not answer any emails on the subject for now. Too much ($2MIL+) is at stake for covers to be blown.
Damn Tom.....you are on top of things.
Thanks for providing this info, and Mike thanks for clarifying it all.

I wish I had contacts like you Tom! That would be nice to get to know the "real" online people!

IAN

[Weenkie]

Yowzerz.....[:O] Glad I live a simple life ;) The powers that be are nothing to mess with.....:kll: xx(

[dan.]

Mike, thanks for that. Information, or the lack of allways leads to confusion that is left open to interpretation.

Weenkie, the bit that offended me was when you refused to read what i had said and only saw the damning comments. I am not a troll by any means, i am however a stubborn sod that hates when his point isn't accepted as an option, no matter how bad it sounds.

Just for clarification isn't the definition of a troll someone who posts constantly on subjects they don't really have anything constructive to say on, how many posts have you made?? ;) (jk)

[Weenkie]

[r0ll] [r0ll] [r0ll] :lol: